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Democratic vice presidential candidate Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., left, and Republican vice presidential candidate Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin shake hands after the vice presidential debate at Washington University in St. Louis, Thursday, Oct. 2, 2008. (AP Photo/Tom Gannam)
~ADVERTISING~
Vice presidential debate: Give us your thoughts on how they did
By JO MANNIES, Courier Lee News Service
ST. LOUIS --- Vice presidential candidates Sarah Palin and Joe Biden spent most of their time
defending or attacking the two men at the top of their tickets — John McCain
and Barack Obama — in a 90-minute debate Thursday night touted as a potential
game-changer.
Whether the Biden-Palin confrontation will live up to its billing as the most
consequential vice presidential debate in history may not be known for days,
when analysts and public opinion polls weigh in.
Immediately after the debate, aides and activists in both camps praised their
candidate's performance. Observers agreed that both avoided the kind of major
gaffe that can send approval ratings plummeting.
Palin, the Republican governor of Alaska, repeatedly emphasized McCain's
promise to keep most of the current federal income tax breaks in place, while
challenging Obama's promise to raise taxes only on people who earn more than
$250,000 a year.
Palin said Obama would end up hiking taxes on far more Americans.
Biden, a veteran U.S. senator from Delaware and a Democrat, defended Obama's
tax proposals while hammering at McCain's plan to tax employer-provided health
insurance and give families an annual $5,000 tax credit to buy their own
coverage.
Biden said McCain's health-insurance plan amounted to a tax increase on many
Americans and would leave millions of them without insurance coverage. Palin
disagreed.
Such back and forth continued when it came to addressing the rising cost of oil
and gasoline, the war in Iraq and foreign policy troubles — particularly the
threats caused by weak or belligerent governments in Iraq, Pakistan and
Afghanistan.
Only one social issue came up during the debate. After some wrangling over
definitions, Palin and Biden both said they opposed same-sex marriage but
supported legal protections for gay couples, such as in the case of hospital
visitations.
Each candidate's approach during the debate reflected their personality. Palin
delivered all of her attacks with a smile and a persistently folksy style.
Biden laced his scholarly responses with a bit of passion, especially when he
mentioned his family.
Palin also had a third task to perform. She needed to bolster her credentials
after facing increasing accusations in recent weeks that she lacked the
knowledge and background in major national and international affairs to serve
as the nation's No. 2. In that quest, she repeatedly touted her record as a
mayor, governor, business owner and mother of five.
Biden avoided any direct attacks at Palin's background, choosing instead to
direct his jabs at McCain and the Bush administration.
The closest Biden came at tweaking Palin came when he called McCain's
health-insurance proposal "the real bridge to nowhere," a reference to a
controversial bridge in Alaska that Palin initially supported but later opposed.
Instead, Biden took exception to Palin's repeated characterization of McCain as
a political maverick. "A maverick he is not," Biden asserted, cited McCain's
agreements with Bush on most major issues.
Palin, meanwhile, repeatedly cited Biden's previous praise for McCain before
Biden became Obama's running mate. She jabbed at Obama's judgment, and accused
him of advocating "a white flag of surrender" with his promise to withdraw most
U.S. troops from Iraq within 16 months.
Palin also faulted Obama for failing to embrace last year's surge of troops in
Iraq, strongly supported by McCain, which generally is deemed to have helped
reduce the level of violence.
At the same time, Palin asserted that a McCain administration would not allow
Iran to acquire nuclear weapons, and she attacked Obama's support for
high-level talks with that nation and others.
Biden countered by citing calls from numerous former secretaries of state,
Republicans and Democrats, for such talks. As for Iraq, Biden said that Obama's
views repeatedly have been embraced by the Bush administration, which has
recently withdrawn some troops, and by the Iraqi government, which also has now
publicly called for a U.S. withdrawal.
As for Iraq, Biden said, "John McCain has been dead wrong when it comes to the
fundamentals of this war."
Afterwards, Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said that Biden "showed a
clear depth in foreign policy," and contended that Palin had given some
incomprehensible answers.
U.S. Sen. Joe Lieberman, I-Conn. and a close McCain ally, praised Palin's
performance and said she "proved tonight that the doubts are unfounded."
The site of Thursday's event took on added significance because Missouri is a
key battleground state, and the latest polls show McCain and Obama to be in a
dead heat.
Thursday's debate marked the fourth time that Washington University has hosted
such a presidential event, though it was the first one to be held at the
university involving the running mates.
Palin left the debate hall immediately for a rally at St. Louis University's
Chaifetz Arena, where she was to be met by thousands of supporters.
The crowd there was enthusiastic during the debate, cheering so loudly at
Palin's closing remarks that they should drowned out half of Biden's closing.
"She did fantastic," said Mary Wilson Stake, 49, of O'Fallon, Ill. "She was
very well-spoken. She had her facts put together well."
Harvey Friedman, an Obama supporter who attended the rally with family who
supports McCain, said he believed the debate was a draw.
"I generally thought both of them did a good job," said Friedman, 69, of
Chesterfield. "Palin definitely did a better job than I thought she would."
Biden didn't join Democrats at any of several local watch parties or rallies.
He flew out of town shortly after the debate to return to his home in Delaware.
Biden wanted to spend time with his son, Delaware Attorney General Beau Biden,
who is leaving today for Iraq as a captain with the Army National Guard.
At a Democratic gathering at the Pageant concert venue in the Loop, more than
250 gathered to cheer Biden.
David Patterson said Biden was in an untenable position.
"When he debated Hillary no one told him not to speak condescendingly," he
said. "He should be able to just debate the issues and let America see what he
stands for. It's an affront that (Palin) has turned this into a freak show."
To hear aides on both sides talk before the debate, Palin planned to be
combative while Biden would appear more conciliatory.
Palin, said spokeswoman Tracey Schmitt, was "going to lay out in no uncertain
terms what is her record of executive leadership and Joe Biden's 35 years in
the confines of Washington D.C."
"Governor Palin has more executive experience than Barack Obama or Joe Biden
combined," Schmitt said.
Meanwhile, Obama senior strategist David Axelrod said in an interview before
the debate that Biden would be emphasizing what sort of change Obama's election
would bring, and contrast that with McCain's.
"He didn't come here with the mind-set of tussling, or a body slam," Axelrod
said.
Debate viewers, he added, "are not turning in to see a sporting event. They're
turning in to see a discussion of the future of this country."
Palin and Biden both flew into Lambert St. Louis International Airport in the
early afternoon, just over an hour apart.
Palin sported a large bandage on her right hand. An aide said she injured it
slightly when she fell while jogging this week at McCain's ranch, where she was
preparing for the debate.
The moderator, Gwen Ifill, also came in with an injury; she broke her ankle
earlier this week. Washington University athletic director John Schael
recruited two members of the football team, starting quarterback Buck Smith and
defensive lineman Tim Taylor, to help Ifill get on stage and into her chair.
Jake Wagman, Adam Jadhav, Kavita Kumar, Steve Giegerich and Todd Frankel of the
Post-Dispatch staff contributed to this report.
defending or attacking the two men at the top of their tickets — John McCain
and Barack Obama — in a 90-minute debate Thursday night touted as a potential
game-changer.
Whether the Biden-Palin confrontation will live up to its billing as the most
consequential vice presidential debate in history may not be known for days,
when analysts and public opinion polls weigh in.
Immediately after the debate, aides and activists in both camps praised their
candidate's performance. Observers agreed that both avoided the kind of major
gaffe that can send approval ratings plummeting.
Palin, the Republican governor of Alaska, repeatedly emphasized McCain's
promise to keep most of the current federal income tax breaks in place, while
challenging Obama's promise to raise taxes only on people who earn more than
$250,000 a year.
Palin said Obama would end up hiking taxes on far more Americans.
Biden, a veteran U.S. senator from Delaware and a Democrat, defended Obama's
tax proposals while hammering at McCain's plan to tax employer-provided health
insurance and give families an annual $5,000 tax credit to buy their own
coverage.
Biden said McCain's health-insurance plan amounted to a tax increase on many
Americans and would leave millions of them without insurance coverage. Palin
disagreed.
Such back and forth continued when it came to addressing the rising cost of oil
and gasoline, the war in Iraq and foreign policy troubles — particularly the
threats caused by weak or belligerent governments in Iraq, Pakistan and
Afghanistan.
Only one social issue came up during the debate. After some wrangling over
definitions, Palin and Biden both said they opposed same-sex marriage but
supported legal protections for gay couples, such as in the case of hospital
visitations.
Each candidate's approach during the debate reflected their personality. Palin
delivered all of her attacks with a smile and a persistently folksy style.
Biden laced his scholarly responses with a bit of passion, especially when he
mentioned his family.
Palin also had a third task to perform. She needed to bolster her credentials
after facing increasing accusations in recent weeks that she lacked the
knowledge and background in major national and international affairs to serve
as the nation's No. 2. In that quest, she repeatedly touted her record as a
mayor, governor, business owner and mother of five.
Biden avoided any direct attacks at Palin's background, choosing instead to
direct his jabs at McCain and the Bush administration.
The closest Biden came at tweaking Palin came when he called McCain's
health-insurance proposal "the real bridge to nowhere," a reference to a
controversial bridge in Alaska that Palin initially supported but later opposed.
Instead, Biden took exception to Palin's repeated characterization of McCain as
a political maverick. "A maverick he is not," Biden asserted, cited McCain's
agreements with Bush on most major issues.
Palin, meanwhile, repeatedly cited Biden's previous praise for McCain before
Biden became Obama's running mate. She jabbed at Obama's judgment, and accused
him of advocating "a white flag of surrender" with his promise to withdraw most
U.S. troops from Iraq within 16 months.
Palin also faulted Obama for failing to embrace last year's surge of troops in
Iraq, strongly supported by McCain, which generally is deemed to have helped
reduce the level of violence.
At the same time, Palin asserted that a McCain administration would not allow
Iran to acquire nuclear weapons, and she attacked Obama's support for
high-level talks with that nation and others.
Biden countered by citing calls from numerous former secretaries of state,
Republicans and Democrats, for such talks. As for Iraq, Biden said that Obama's
views repeatedly have been embraced by the Bush administration, which has
recently withdrawn some troops, and by the Iraqi government, which also has now
publicly called for a U.S. withdrawal.
As for Iraq, Biden said, "John McCain has been dead wrong when it comes to the
fundamentals of this war."
Afterwards, Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said that Biden "showed a
clear depth in foreign policy," and contended that Palin had given some
incomprehensible answers.
U.S. Sen. Joe Lieberman, I-Conn. and a close McCain ally, praised Palin's
performance and said she "proved tonight that the doubts are unfounded."
The site of Thursday's event took on added significance because Missouri is a
key battleground state, and the latest polls show McCain and Obama to be in a
dead heat.
Thursday's debate marked the fourth time that Washington University has hosted
such a presidential event, though it was the first one to be held at the
university involving the running mates.
Palin left the debate hall immediately for a rally at St. Louis University's
Chaifetz Arena, where she was to be met by thousands of supporters.
The crowd there was enthusiastic during the debate, cheering so loudly at
Palin's closing remarks that they should drowned out half of Biden's closing.
"She did fantastic," said Mary Wilson Stake, 49, of O'Fallon, Ill. "She was
very well-spoken. She had her facts put together well."
Harvey Friedman, an Obama supporter who attended the rally with family who
supports McCain, said he believed the debate was a draw.
"I generally thought both of them did a good job," said Friedman, 69, of
Chesterfield. "Palin definitely did a better job than I thought she would."
Biden didn't join Democrats at any of several local watch parties or rallies.
He flew out of town shortly after the debate to return to his home in Delaware.
Biden wanted to spend time with his son, Delaware Attorney General Beau Biden,
who is leaving today for Iraq as a captain with the Army National Guard.
At a Democratic gathering at the Pageant concert venue in the Loop, more than
250 gathered to cheer Biden.
David Patterson said Biden was in an untenable position.
"When he debated Hillary no one told him not to speak condescendingly," he
said. "He should be able to just debate the issues and let America see what he
stands for. It's an affront that (Palin) has turned this into a freak show."
To hear aides on both sides talk before the debate, Palin planned to be
combative while Biden would appear more conciliatory.
Palin, said spokeswoman Tracey Schmitt, was "going to lay out in no uncertain
terms what is her record of executive leadership and Joe Biden's 35 years in
the confines of Washington D.C."
"Governor Palin has more executive experience than Barack Obama or Joe Biden
combined," Schmitt said.
Meanwhile, Obama senior strategist David Axelrod said in an interview before
the debate that Biden would be emphasizing what sort of change Obama's election
would bring, and contrast that with McCain's.
"He didn't come here with the mind-set of tussling, or a body slam," Axelrod
said.
Debate viewers, he added, "are not turning in to see a sporting event. They're
turning in to see a discussion of the future of this country."
Palin and Biden both flew into Lambert St. Louis International Airport in the
early afternoon, just over an hour apart.
Palin sported a large bandage on her right hand. An aide said she injured it
slightly when she fell while jogging this week at McCain's ranch, where she was
preparing for the debate.
The moderator, Gwen Ifill, also came in with an injury; she broke her ankle
earlier this week. Washington University athletic director John Schael
recruited two members of the football team, starting quarterback Buck Smith and
defensive lineman Tim Taylor, to help Ifill get on stage and into her chair.
Jake Wagman, Adam Jadhav, Kavita Kumar, Steve Giegerich and Todd Frankel of the
Post-Dispatch staff contributed to this report.
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cf1981 wrote on Oct 3, 2008 7:16 AM:
" The expectations were set so low for Palin that as long as she didn't vomit on herself or fall off the stage, she would have been seen as winning the debate. And she didn't do either of those two. She recited her memorized platitudes well enough, although they often sounded rushed, and she made a point of making eye contact with Biden at least once every three seconds before turning her gaze back to the camera and smiling for the audience. Whenever Biden spoke she was busy looking over her notecards, like a student cramming before (during?) a test. Throw in the occassional wink at the camera and a "soccer mom", "Joe six-pack", "by golly" and/or "darn toot'n" and she won! "
JonL wrote on Oct 3, 2008 8:18 AM:
" when people bash the obama-biden campaign and work in obama's middle name, which is common among a certain heritage, it's pretty obvious they're not the kind of folks giving the blue ticket a fair shake. i thought both candidates gave measured, calculated, careful performances, because neither one wants to be the one that lost the election. palin's "aw-shucks" brand of down-home American was a bit cringe-inducing, but it was still a clever bit of maneuvering to make Joe Biden look like some kind of DC fatcat. I thought it was a solid performance by both. "
Think wrote on Oct 3, 2008 8:43 AM:
" Palin may not have years of foreign policy experience but she demonstrated last night was a quick study she is. That’s why every President has advisers. Sarah will be a great VP and even better President. So if Biden didn’t “take the gloves off” that tells me the whole thing was a show and act to grab votes for the man that Biden himself said was unqualified to be President. Had Biden been the nominee do you really think he would have picked Obama as a running mate? That’s rhetorical for those on the left. "
unionlabel wrote on Oct 3, 2008 9:01 AM:
" Biden is an accomplished debater, but I felt Palin came across very well.
Democrats for McCain-Palin '08
Hillary 2012 "
Democrats for McCain-Palin '08
Hillary 2012 "
xdfred wrote on Oct 3, 2008 9:06 AM:
" JonL wrote on Oct 3, 2008 8:18 AM:
" when people bash the obama-biden campaign and work in obama's middle name, which is common among a certain heritage, it's pretty obvious they're not the kind of folks giving the blue ticket a fair shake...." Why should I give Barack Hussein Obama a fair shake? Do the babies he condemns to die due to his solid no conditions pro abortion stance get one? How about the law abiding he wants to disarm even though it is against the Constitution and gun "control" only increases crime/violence? Why should I give either of them a fair shake when all they want to do is increase taxes, not for the good of the country, but out of "fairness, neighborliness" or some misguided definition of patriotism? No.
Too bad no one was asked about the second amendment during last nights debate. Biden, with his in depth knowledge of our Constitution, would have that they were talking about the tax code. "
" when people bash the obama-biden campaign and work in obama's middle name, which is common among a certain heritage, it's pretty obvious they're not the kind of folks giving the blue ticket a fair shake...." Why should I give Barack Hussein Obama a fair shake? Do the babies he condemns to die due to his solid no conditions pro abortion stance get one? How about the law abiding he wants to disarm even though it is against the Constitution and gun "control" only increases crime/violence? Why should I give either of them a fair shake when all they want to do is increase taxes, not for the good of the country, but out of "fairness, neighborliness" or some misguided definition of patriotism? No.
Too bad no one was asked about the second amendment during last nights debate. Biden, with his in depth knowledge of our Constitution, would have that they were talking about the tax code. "
KC wrote on Oct 3, 2008 9:17 AM:
" She just can't compete with Biden. He's the best debater out of any of them.
I'm so tired of her folksy speak as well. Hopefully, the American citizens are wise voters and can see through all this. Palin has no substance. "
I'm so tired of her folksy speak as well. Hopefully, the American citizens are wise voters and can see through all this. Palin has no substance. "
DoesAnyoneCare wrote on Oct 3, 2008 9:41 AM:
" The debate was a push, and boring. The same tired lines were used by both candidates, Palin continues the "McCain is a Maverick" Biden continues the same "McCain is another Bush." The moderators say the candidates do not know the questions ahead of time, but you know they know what type of questions are going to be asked. Nothing new came from this debate or the one last Friday. We hear what they will do, not how they are going to do it. I found myself watching more of the UNI game last night then the debate because I knew what the answers were going to be to almost every question. I'm starting to think neither of these candidates will bring change, neither will change Washington Politics and neither will get us out of this economic mess we are in. "
MrT wrote on Oct 3, 2008 10:17 AM:
" (Just to warn everyone, I'm not trying to talk like an idiot in this post... just like Sarah Palin... )
OOOOOO GEEEE SHUCKS - Palin was rediculous during this debate. "Ya knoooo Gwen, I'm not gonna answer deez questions. I'm gonna talk straight to de American people."
OOOOO ya - hetfield - ya said dat Biden was lying when he said dat McCain voted against funding the troops. Well, wrong again my friend.
"March 29, 2007, McCain himself voted against H.R. 1591, an emergency spending bill that would have funded the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and would have provided more than $1 billion in additional funds to the Department of Veterans Affairs."-http://mediamatters.org/items/200806040002
CF1981- Hillarious... ooooooo ya.... dat was funny "
OOOOOO GEEEE SHUCKS - Palin was rediculous during this debate. "Ya knoooo Gwen, I'm not gonna answer deez questions. I'm gonna talk straight to de American people."
OOOOO ya - hetfield - ya said dat Biden was lying when he said dat McCain voted against funding the troops. Well, wrong again my friend.
"March 29, 2007, McCain himself voted against H.R. 1591, an emergency spending bill that would have funded the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and would have provided more than $1 billion in additional funds to the Department of Veterans Affairs."-http://mediamatters.org/items/200806040002
CF1981- Hillarious... ooooooo ya.... dat was funny "
xdfred wrote on Oct 3, 2008 11:00 AM:
" MrT wrote on Oct 3, 2008 10:17 AM:
" (Just to warn everyone, I'm not trying to talk like an idiot in this post... just like Sarah Palin... ).." As I mentioned before to another poster, she has accomplished much more than you have. She knows more than you have. So, if she's an idiot, what's that make you?
My wife summed it up pretty well. Sarah Palin is one of us. Joe Biden is another symbol of what is wrong with the Washington D.C. establishment. yet, Mr "Change" picked him for VP. Smooth.
So make fun and call names, T, because that's all you and yours can do.
Now, if I post some lines making fun of Barack Hussein Obama written in ebonics, whatever that is, would that be racism? If so, isn't what you're doing the same thing?
"March 29, 2007, McCain himself voted against H.R. 1591, an emergency spending bill that would have funded the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and would have provided more than $1 billion in additional funds to the Department of Veterans Affairs."-http://mediamatters.org/items/200806040002.." She was talking about a different bill. This bill had a strict surrender timeline attached to it. Too bad you left that part out. "
" (Just to warn everyone, I'm not trying to talk like an idiot in this post... just like Sarah Palin... ).." As I mentioned before to another poster, she has accomplished much more than you have. She knows more than you have. So, if she's an idiot, what's that make you?
My wife summed it up pretty well. Sarah Palin is one of us. Joe Biden is another symbol of what is wrong with the Washington D.C. establishment. yet, Mr "Change" picked him for VP. Smooth.
So make fun and call names, T, because that's all you and yours can do.
Now, if I post some lines making fun of Barack Hussein Obama written in ebonics, whatever that is, would that be racism? If so, isn't what you're doing the same thing?
"March 29, 2007, McCain himself voted against H.R. 1591, an emergency spending bill that would have funded the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and would have provided more than $1 billion in additional funds to the Department of Veterans Affairs."-http://mediamatters.org/items/200806040002.." She was talking about a different bill. This bill had a strict surrender timeline attached to it. Too bad you left that part out. "
xdfred wrote on Oct 3, 2008 11:01 AM:
" KC wrote on Oct 3, 2008 9:17 AM:
" She just can't compete with Biden. He's the best debater out of any of them...." Are you saying he's all talk? His record in Washington sure does. "
" She just can't compete with Biden. He's the best debater out of any of them...." Are you saying he's all talk? His record in Washington sure does. "
DoesAnyoneCare wrote on Oct 3, 2008 11:33 AM:
" Mr. T. regarding the funding of troops, factcheck.org addressed this topic specifically...
"the squabble refers to a pair of 2007 votes on war funding. Obama voted for a version of the bill that included language calling for withdrawing troops from Iraq. Biden is simply wrong to say that McCain voted against that bill; he was absent and didn’t vote at all. McCain did oppose the bill, and he urged President Bush to veto it. Bush did. Obama then voted against the same bill without withdrawal language."
An independent watch group stated what Biden said was wrong. "
"the squabble refers to a pair of 2007 votes on war funding. Obama voted for a version of the bill that included language calling for withdrawing troops from Iraq. Biden is simply wrong to say that McCain voted against that bill; he was absent and didn’t vote at all. McCain did oppose the bill, and he urged President Bush to veto it. Bush did. Obama then voted against the same bill without withdrawal language."
An independent watch group stated what Biden said was wrong. "
KC wrote on Oct 3, 2008 11:40 AM:
" xdfred - not at all! He made concise points, several times over, answered the questions, rebutted with truth and pointedly made the strongest case for an Obama presidency.
She, on the other hand, did none of these things for her respective running mate. "
She, on the other hand, did none of these things for her respective running mate. "
Bluetooth wrote on Oct 3, 2008 11:52 AM:
" Palin was a Joke....talk about memorized answers.....and it seemed funny that from the start she kept looking down and her little notes....notes that she obviously brought in, and if she didn't have the answer memorized or on her cheat sheets, she refused to answer......thats the change I want......NOT! "
cf1981 wrote on Oct 3, 2008 11:58 AM:
" It's a sad commentary on American politics when one political party can lower artifical expectations of their candidates (Bush in 2000 and 2004, Palin in 2008) that as long as they don't bark like a dog or crap their pants, they're seen as "winners" of their debates.
Roger Ebert wrote something about Bush that I agree with and could easily be said of Palin as well -- "The President should be more articulate than the average person. Bush does not speak "the way ordinary people speak." The average American is more articulate (and in the case of Palin, less evasive). If a stranger sat next to you on the bus and spoke as Bush (or Palin) speaks, you would quickly form an idea of his intellectual level. It would not be Presidential." "
Roger Ebert wrote something about Bush that I agree with and could easily be said of Palin as well -- "The President should be more articulate than the average person. Bush does not speak "the way ordinary people speak." The average American is more articulate (and in the case of Palin, less evasive). If a stranger sat next to you on the bus and spoke as Bush (or Palin) speaks, you would quickly form an idea of his intellectual level. It would not be Presidential." "
GodBlessAmerica wrote on Oct 3, 2008 12:05 PM:
" Palin did a great job. As for memorized answers as Bluetooth thinks, what about Biden's Yeah, but look at Bush typical answers? McCain's not Bush. But, if you want to play that game, Obama is Clinton. He's promising lower taxes and will turn on his word once he gets into office, just as Clinton did. Since when are Democrats about lowering taxes!? BTW, I'll say it again. The "rich" don't pay taxes, they own buisnesses and will PASS THAT TAX ON TO THE CONSUMER. YOU will pay, YOUR jobs/hours will be cut. If you make undies, are you gonna eat the extra cost if the price of cotton and elastic goes up!? Heck no, you pass it on to the consumer. So, your hours got cut, you're not making as much money, no new undies, undies maker can't afford to be in business if no one's buyin, bad economy. Pretty simple folks. "
missy b wrote on Oct 3, 2008 12:07 PM:
" I felt the debate went very well and Sara is a delightful woman, but is not the person to run this country when John McCain dies of a heart attack. Joe Biden did a fantastic job by answering each question. Again, Palen walked around the issues and really on ly answered 3 questions all night.
Tough election this year! "
Tough election this year! "
conservativeme wrote on Oct 3, 2008 12:13 PM:
" Man, you guys..........
The left will always say that he won, the right will always say that she won. What we need to watch is what the No party voters think. If McCain gets the bump in the polls, she won, if Obama does, Biden won. Simple.
You can make fun of her style and delivery if you want, but she was talking straight to the average voter. You must not have talked to many average folks lately, because they heard her loud and clear. "
The left will always say that he won, the right will always say that she won. What we need to watch is what the No party voters think. If McCain gets the bump in the polls, she won, if Obama does, Biden won. Simple.
You can make fun of her style and delivery if you want, but she was talking straight to the average voter. You must not have talked to many average folks lately, because they heard her loud and clear. "
DoesAnyoneCare wrote on Oct 3, 2008 12:33 PM:
" I reiterate my post from another thread...
" How is Obama change??????
1. Voted 96% of the time with the democratic majority.
2. Has run a negative campaign.
3. Has a VP candidate who has accepted over $200,000 in campaign contributions from credit card companies.
5. Stated to his supporters that he would accept federal funds that would limit both candidates spending between convention and election day, only to go back on his work and reject the finiancing.
6. Stood on the sidelines during the the formation of the bailout bill, then when it came to the senate, took credit for adding provisions to the bill.
7. Ignored his duties as a Senator in order to run for President. How is the voice his constituents heard when he shows for only 55% of the votes in his whole Senate Career.
8. His VP candidate is on record stating he Obama did not have the experience to be president and then flip flopped when he had the opportunity to be VP. A job which he has stated Hilliary Clinton is more qualified for.
Change??? Obama/Biden is not change, that is the same old Washington politics. Take an independent look at Obama, peel off the good looks, the negative attacks, and the fact he tells america what it wants to hear, but does not say how he will do things. and you'll see he has little substance. "
Obama promises to take away loopholes in corperate taxes and take away tax cuts for "Big Oil". Do you think these companies are going to absorb these additional costs? No, they will pass them right on to the consumer. Do you think congress will vote to increase taxes on those making over $250,000? espically when a lot of those "wealthy" are major campaign contributers? Has universal healthcare ever succeded? Not even when the Clintons tried it. The healthcare/insurance industry holds too much power to let it happen.
Look at what Obama wants to do with common sense. While he says what America wants to hear, there is no way he is going to succed, what happens when his tax increases don't go through on the wealthy and corporations, when his increased taxes on several hundred thousand small buisnesses (factcheck.org) shuts the buisnesses down and costs jobs, what's his plan then? Where does he get the money for his programs and lower college tuition? I guess we'll all have to do our patriotic duty then and accept higher taxes. "
" How is Obama change??????
1. Voted 96% of the time with the democratic majority.
2. Has run a negative campaign.
3. Has a VP candidate who has accepted over $200,000 in campaign contributions from credit card companies.
5. Stated to his supporters that he would accept federal funds that would limit both candidates spending between convention and election day, only to go back on his work and reject the finiancing.
6. Stood on the sidelines during the the formation of the bailout bill, then when it came to the senate, took credit for adding provisions to the bill.
7. Ignored his duties as a Senator in order to run for President. How is the voice his constituents heard when he shows for only 55% of the votes in his whole Senate Career.
8. His VP candidate is on record stating he Obama did not have the experience to be president and then flip flopped when he had the opportunity to be VP. A job which he has stated Hilliary Clinton is more qualified for.
Change??? Obama/Biden is not change, that is the same old Washington politics. Take an independent look at Obama, peel off the good looks, the negative attacks, and the fact he tells america what it wants to hear, but does not say how he will do things. and you'll see he has little substance. "
Obama promises to take away loopholes in corperate taxes and take away tax cuts for "Big Oil". Do you think these companies are going to absorb these additional costs? No, they will pass them right on to the consumer. Do you think congress will vote to increase taxes on those making over $250,000? espically when a lot of those "wealthy" are major campaign contributers? Has universal healthcare ever succeded? Not even when the Clintons tried it. The healthcare/insurance industry holds too much power to let it happen.
Look at what Obama wants to do with common sense. While he says what America wants to hear, there is no way he is going to succed, what happens when his tax increases don't go through on the wealthy and corporations, when his increased taxes on several hundred thousand small buisnesses (factcheck.org) shuts the buisnesses down and costs jobs, what's his plan then? Where does he get the money for his programs and lower college tuition? I guess we'll all have to do our patriotic duty then and accept higher taxes. "
MrT wrote on Oct 3, 2008 12:40 PM:
" xdfred - "if I post some lines making fun of Barack Hussein Obama written in ebonics, whatever that is, would that be racism?" The answer is YES. Because Barack Obama does not use ebonics. Since you admitted in your post that you "dont get what it is," please allow me to inform you.
Ebonics is a style of speaking, commonly associated with African Americans, in which which are commonly combined. For instance, "finsta" means "I am going to." Last time I checked, Barack Obama doesn't speak in that way. So, you would be making an assumption based on his race. That would make your comment racist.
Get it??? "
Ebonics is a style of speaking, commonly associated with African Americans, in which which are commonly combined. For instance, "finsta" means "I am going to." Last time I checked, Barack Obama doesn't speak in that way. So, you would be making an assumption based on his race. That would make your comment racist.
Get it??? "
xdfred wrote on Oct 3, 2008 12:44 PM:
" KC wrote on Oct 3, 2008 11:40 AM:
" xdfred - not at all! He made concise points, several times over, answered the questions, rebutted with truth..." Truth? He twisted the truth at least 7 times. And prior to the debate, he had said that when the great depression started, FDR went on TV and talked to the people about what was going on. In 1929, Hoover was president and TV wouldn't be invented for another 18 years. Truth? Plus, Biden was spouting talking points also. And he voted for the war, but really didn't. What a standup guy. "
" xdfred - not at all! He made concise points, several times over, answered the questions, rebutted with truth..." Truth? He twisted the truth at least 7 times. And prior to the debate, he had said that when the great depression started, FDR went on TV and talked to the people about what was going on. In 1929, Hoover was president and TV wouldn't be invented for another 18 years. Truth? Plus, Biden was spouting talking points also. And he voted for the war, but really didn't. What a standup guy. "
xdfred wrote on Oct 3, 2008 12:45 PM:
" Bluetooth wrote on Oct 3, 2008 11:52 AM:
" Palin was a Joke....talk about memorized answers....." vs Biden's memorized answers? They both did the same thing. "
" Palin was a Joke....talk about memorized answers....." vs Biden's memorized answers? They both did the same thing. "
KC wrote on Oct 3, 2008 1:03 PM:
" "You must not have talked to many average folks lately, because they heard her loud and clear."
that's what I'm afraid of - too many "average" American voters not knowing what they're doing! There are more dumb people in American than smart ones...McCain could win this just because someone likes Palin's style. That's no way to pick a president. "
that's what I'm afraid of - too many "average" American voters not knowing what they're doing! There are more dumb people in American than smart ones...McCain could win this just because someone likes Palin's style. That's no way to pick a president. "
xdfred wrote on Oct 3, 2008 1:59 PM:
" MrT wrote on Oct 3, 2008 12:40 PM:
" xdfred - "if I post some lines making fun of Barack Hussein Obama ..."
I get it. Anything you do isn't racist, but anything I might do is. Typical.
So when Hillary spoke in ebonics in a church during her campaign, was that racist? "
" xdfred - "if I post some lines making fun of Barack Hussein Obama ..."
I get it. Anything you do isn't racist, but anything I might do is. Typical.
So when Hillary spoke in ebonics in a church during her campaign, was that racist? "
rj wrote on Oct 3, 2008 2:06 PM:
" ...The post making fun of Governor Palen's accent and speaking style is every bit as racist and objectionable as someone making fun of people who speak in Ebonics and have poor writing skills. "
Bluetooth wrote on Oct 3, 2008 2:14 PM:
" Palin saying she was talking to the average American.....are you kidding me, she never once left her comfort zone..No facts, No examples, No statistics.....Palin is a Joke....when this is over, she be glad shes back in Alaska and so will the Average American Voter....
Its like someone said on a news interview....the average American is worried about losing their homes....McCains not worried cause he can move into any one of the seven houses....Its also funny how palin now wants to go back and answer all the questions that she couldnt answer to Couric....but then shes had time to have Daddy McCain tell her what to say...it wouldn't surprise me if that was McCain dress as Palin last night...... "
Its like someone said on a news interview....the average American is worried about losing their homes....McCains not worried cause he can move into any one of the seven houses....Its also funny how palin now wants to go back and answer all the questions that she couldnt answer to Couric....but then shes had time to have Daddy McCain tell her what to say...it wouldn't surprise me if that was McCain dress as Palin last night...... "
GodBlessAmerica wrote on Oct 3, 2008 2:54 PM:
" KC, the "average" American doesn't think a botched abortion baby should lay there and die with no medical help. The "average" American doesn't want the traditional definition of marriage to change. Do the research. Check the numbers. So all of these "average" people are "dumb"!?!?!Go ahead and vote for Obama. Mark my words: taxes will increase, jobs will be lost, gov't run healthcare will leave people with the feds deciding what operations, people are necessity/priority, and we'll be living in a socialist country soon. Obviously your conscience can allow you to kill babies and leave them to die. Mine can't. "
conservativeme wrote on Oct 3, 2008 4:14 PM:
" Ya, KC, about as bad as folks voting for "change" without a clue of what that change is. No thought processes there either.......... "
conservativeme wrote on Oct 3, 2008 4:16 PM:
" that's it Bluetooth, get all of that anger out here where you can't hurt anybody............if you couldn't understand her answers, then they weren't directed at you.......... "
xdfred wrote on Oct 3, 2008 4:25 PM:
" Bluetooth wrote on Oct 3, 2008 2:14 PM:
"...Its like someone said on a news interview....the average American is worried about losing their homes....McCains not worried cause he can move into any one of the seven houses...." And Obama's solution? Make shady deals with people like Reszko, or get ACORN to protest you a place to live. Or Ayers to blow people up you don't like, or sic the police and prosecutors, like the so called Missouri truth squad, on political dissedents......This sounding good to anyone? "
"...Its like someone said on a news interview....the average American is worried about losing their homes....McCains not worried cause he can move into any one of the seven houses...." And Obama's solution? Make shady deals with people like Reszko, or get ACORN to protest you a place to live. Or Ayers to blow people up you don't like, or sic the police and prosecutors, like the so called Missouri truth squad, on political dissedents......This sounding good to anyone? "
realityxdose wrote on Oct 3, 2008 5:23 PM:
" Hey, at least Palin didn't cry.
It's always funny when middle aged woman who would vote for Hilary are now for Palin. Their views are completely opposite, and McCain insults women all over America by believing women will vote for Palin simply because she's a woman. Let's hope America proves him wrong. "
It's always funny when middle aged woman who would vote for Hilary are now for Palin. Their views are completely opposite, and McCain insults women all over America by believing women will vote for Palin simply because she's a woman. Let's hope America proves him wrong. "
Dreams wrote on Oct 3, 2008 5:35 PM:
" If Palin would have said the word "Maverick" one more time....I was gonna be sick! There is something about that woman that I just don't trust. "
MrT wrote on Oct 3, 2008 7:56 PM:
" "I get it. Anything you do isn't racist, but anything I might do is. Typical." - what don't you get xdfred??? I commented on the way Sarah Palin speaks. You commented on the way a stereotypical black person speaks, despite the fact that Barack Obama doesn't speak that way. So... in other terms. You just assumed that because Obama is black, then he MUST sound like your idea of a black person.
Well, sorry to break your racist bubble, but not all black people sound the same. And we don't look the same either if you couldn't tell. "
Well, sorry to break your racist bubble, but not all black people sound the same. And we don't look the same either if you couldn't tell. "
Stana wrote on Oct 3, 2008 8:53 PM:
" Well I think Biden won but Palin did ok. She was too rehearsed though. And I don't beleive the cutesy folkisms, they were annoying. Made her look like she was condesending to the American public. (let me talk down to you)
I too was gonna lose it if she said Maverick one more time.
Biden did a better job of somewhat answering the questions. It was as if She wanted to get points accross and her and McCains postions, which would have been okay if it wasn't a debate. I did want to hear what her ideas are and McCains as I am undecided, but this wasn't the place as it was almost rude how they (both) didn't answer the questions "
I too was gonna lose it if she said Maverick one more time.
Biden did a better job of somewhat answering the questions. It was as if She wanted to get points accross and her and McCains postions, which would have been okay if it wasn't a debate. I did want to hear what her ideas are and McCains as I am undecided, but this wasn't the place as it was almost rude how they (both) didn't answer the questions "
badtoe wrote on Oct 4, 2008 12:28 AM:
" Biden won the debate hands down. He did a respectable job of not taking "dings" at Palin, but instead directed his attacks toward McCain. Otherwise the spineless voters would see him as a bully against the pretty young lady. Palin has clearly received crash training on many of the top issues over the past few weeks. Her answers came off as memorized and not naturally delivered. She dodged some questions by backtracking and would give a folksy response when pinched with an unfamiliar issue. She's certainly not qualified to potentially be the 2nd in Command of the world's most powerful country. This debate just further proved the importance of a Democratic win in November. "
the_bat wrote on Oct 4, 2008 12:41 AM:
" Frankly, I'm getting tired of people from Iowa bashing the way Sarah Palin speaks.
Do you people ever listen to yourselves?
^o^
—I found her to be compelling and perspicuous. "
Do you people ever listen to yourselves?
^o^
—I found her to be compelling and perspicuous. "
the_bat wrote on Oct 4, 2008 12:49 AM:
" KC wrote on OCT 3, 2008 1:03 PM:
" "You must not have talked to many average folks lately, because they heard her loud and clear."
that's what I'm afraid of - too many "average" American voters not knowing what they're doing! There are more dumb people in American than smart ones..."
...So, that means that if Obama wins... He was elected by dumb people?
^o^
—I wonder if he wears a t-shirt that says, "I see dumb people"? "
" "You must not have talked to many average folks lately, because they heard her loud and clear."
that's what I'm afraid of - too many "average" American voters not knowing what they're doing! There are more dumb people in American than smart ones..."
...So, that means that if Obama wins... He was elected by dumb people?
^o^
—I wonder if he wears a t-shirt that says, "I see dumb people"? "
the_bat wrote on Oct 4, 2008 12:55 AM:
" realityxdose wrote on OCT 3, 2008 5:23 PM:
" Hey, at least Palin didn't cry.
It's always funny when middle aged woman who would vote for Hilary are now for Palin. Their views are completely opposite, and McCain insults women all over America by believing women will vote for Palin simply because she's a woman. Let's hope America proves him wrong. "
Actually, I haven't noticed Hillary out there doing stump speeches or singing hosannas for Obama. In fact, I think she'd probably just as soon see him lose so she could get another crack at it in 2012.
^o^
—If Hillary was your first choice, vote for McCain/Palin. "
" Hey, at least Palin didn't cry.
It's always funny when middle aged woman who would vote for Hilary are now for Palin. Their views are completely opposite, and McCain insults women all over America by believing women will vote for Palin simply because she's a woman. Let's hope America proves him wrong. "
Actually, I haven't noticed Hillary out there doing stump speeches or singing hosannas for Obama. In fact, I think she'd probably just as soon see him lose so she could get another crack at it in 2012.
^o^
—If Hillary was your first choice, vote for McCain/Palin. "
KC wrote on Oct 4, 2008 5:32 AM:
" GodBless - Yep, for those reasons you listed I'm pretty sure America has dumbed down. We need to be a progressive country, not a backwards one.... "
FAQ wrote on Oct 4, 2008 9:32 AM:
" Biden, the same old windbag, spouting the same old, old liberal lines of "we'll save you". Biden has been in the Senate for 30+ years and "Now" he wants to cut taxes for the middle class? Obama and Biden will turn this country into a socialistic state as quickly as possible if they are elected and have a majority in the legislature. Americans will rue the day if Obama & Biden are elected as president & vice-president. Two clowns will indeed a sideshow make! "
timbrackett wrote on Oct 4, 2008 11:42 AM:
" biden won the debate handily. and i don't care if you agree or not, because the majority of voters agree with me. and the majority of voters are voting obama/biden on november 4th.
so rant and rave and disagree all you want, but on january 20th i will watch with pride as the restoration of america begins with president barack obama. "
so rant and rave and disagree all you want, but on january 20th i will watch with pride as the restoration of america begins with president barack obama. "
gmaro wrote on Oct 4, 2008 12:44 PM:
" Mr. T is right Obama isn't a typical black man cause after all the typical black man doesn't have a white mother. I'm sick and tired of all the talk of Obama being such a great black man. Why can't he be just a great man, period. Why does everything have to be based on race? It's people like you who keep the racial divide going. And I am proud to be one of those dumb "average" Americans. A college degree and being able to talk in circles doesn't make a person smart either. "
MrT wrote on Oct 4, 2008 2:32 PM:
" gmaro- you are talking about xdfred who starts in with the race stuff, right? Because if you look at the previous messages between xdfred and I, you will certainly be able to see who took this convo to racism as opposed to my original argument which was a return on the claim that Biden lied when speaking about war funding. "
xdfred wrote on Oct 6, 2008 10:48 AM:
" As usual, T, you miss the point. I'll ask again.
"..So when Hillary spoke in ebonics in a church during her campaign, was that racist? " "
"..So when Hillary spoke in ebonics in a church during her campaign, was that racist? " "
MrT wrote on Oct 7, 2008 9:08 AM:
" Xdfred- first of all, please allow me to inform you that hillary did not speak "ebonics" when she was in black churches. She simply spoke with a traditional black cadence. The flow of oratory isn't necessarily synonymous with ebonics. Not all black people speak with ebonics. You comments on this wall have displayed a general lack of african-american culture. Not all black people talk the same, just as not all white people talk the same. African Americans are individuals too, who live beyond stereotypes.
Now, to you question, which is rather irrelevant... "was Hillary being racist when she spoke in black churches?" No. Was she pandering? Yes. Did & do I find it offensive when white insist on changing their cadence when speaking to black people? Yes. However, she wasn't speaking ebonics, she was speaking with a black cadence. Had she spoken in ebonics, she would have been laughed out of that church and possibly out of the presidential race. That would have been "bullworth"-esq (it's a pretty funny movie, you should go rent it). "
Now, to you question, which is rather irrelevant... "was Hillary being racist when she spoke in black churches?" No. Was she pandering? Yes. Did & do I find it offensive when white insist on changing their cadence when speaking to black people? Yes. However, she wasn't speaking ebonics, she was speaking with a black cadence. Had she spoken in ebonics, she would have been laughed out of that church and possibly out of the presidential race. That would have been "bullworth"-esq (it's a pretty funny movie, you should go rent it). "
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hetfield wrote on Oct 3, 2008 6:59 AM:
also, i heard palin shake off any concerns about her being inexperienced. she showed more than barack hussein obama did in his debate. she was very articulate and showed that she is more than the dimwit the mainstream media ha portrayed.
I would have asked biden how he thinks he is ready for the presidency when he was thrown out of iowa in the caucus. i would have also repeated many times how he said barack hussein obama is not ready for the presidency. "